[v2] MyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help
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Message ID 20191115230637.76877-1-emilyshaffer@google.com
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Emily Shaffer Nov. 15, 2019, 11:06 p.m. UTC
With https://public-inbox.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
contributors who have questions.

Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
questions there too. Mention some of the conventions in case folks are
unfamiliar with IRC.

Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
contributors, it's possible that no response is found on either forum,
so list the main mailing list as a fallback and mention some of the
conventions.

Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
---

Reworded the Git mailing list blurb per Denton's recommendation.

 Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 33 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 1 file changed, 33 insertions(+)

Comments

Johannes Schindelin Nov. 15, 2019, 11:38 p.m. UTC | #1
Hi Emily,

On Fri, 15 Nov 2019, Emily Shaffer wrote:

> With https://public-inbox.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
> now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
> contributors who have questions.
>
> Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
> questions there too. Mention some of the conventions in case folks are
> unfamiliar with IRC.
>
> Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
> contributors, it's possible that no response is found on either forum,
> so list the main mailing list as a fallback and mention some of the
> conventions.
>
> Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> ---

Looks good to me.

Thanks!
Dscho

>
> Reworded the Git mailing list blurb per Denton's recommendation.
>
>  Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 33 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>  1 file changed, 33 insertions(+)
>
> diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> index 5e9b808f5f..90f45b387a 100644
> --- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> +++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> @@ -23,6 +23,39 @@ useful additional context:
>  - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
>  - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
>
> +[[getting-help]]
> +=== Getting Help
> +
> +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
> +
> +==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
> +
> +This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
> +questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
> +project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
> +
> +==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
> +
> +This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
> +currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
> +in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
> +https://colabti.org/irclogger//irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
> +whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
> +if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
> +respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
> +can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
> +conversation.
> +
> +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> +
> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> +"subscribe git" in the body.
> +
>  [[getting-started]]
>  == Getting Started
>
> --
> 2.24.0.432.g9d3f5f5b63-goog
>
>
Jonathan Nieder Nov. 16, 2019, 12:09 a.m. UTC | #2
Emily Shaffer wrote:

> --- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> +++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> @@ -23,6 +23,39 @@ useful additional context:
>  - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
>  - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
>  
> +[[getting-help]]
> +=== Getting Help
> +
> +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
> +
> +==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
> +
> +This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
> +questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
> +project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
> +
> +==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
> +
> +This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
> +currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
> +in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
> +https://colabti.org/irclogger//irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see

optional: https://j.mp/gitdevlog also works and is briefer.

> +whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
> +if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
> +respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
> +can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
> +conversation.
> +
> +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> +
> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> +"subscribe git" in the body.
> +

Very nice.

Reviewed-by: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>

Thanks.
Junio C Hamano Nov. 16, 2019, 3:05 a.m. UTC | #3
Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:

> +[[getting-help]]
> +=== Getting Help
> +
> +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.

Is this list meant to be an exhaustive list of authoritative
sources?  IOW, are we reasonably sure that some of us would be
around and give useful help, and that we do not mind readers to
consider these places "officially endorsed by the project"?

Or is this meant to be a list of reasonably well-known places, but
may include places where the project does not want to be associated
with the quality of answers given there?  

I am (implicitly) assuming that it is the former, but I think it is
better to clarify what this "list of places" is meant to be.

I notice that stack overflow is missing in this list.  Intended?
Not that I visit there at all nor I would recommend it, but I recall
seeing questions asked by more than a few people after getting bad
pieces of advice there.

> +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> +
> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> +"subscribe git" in the body.

Sounds good; I agree with Denton, especially with the mention of
"you must join" on the other mailing list, that it is a good idea to
explicitly say that subscription is optional in this entry.

You can ask questions even if you haven't tried other avenues and
failed, but this entry makes it sound as if an earlier failure
elsewhere is a prerequisite for asking for help here.


Thanks.
Emily Shaffer Nov. 18, 2019, 9:45 p.m. UTC | #4
On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 12:05:45PM +0900, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:
> 
> > +[[getting-help]]
> > +=== Getting Help
> > +
> > +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
> 
> Is this list meant to be an exhaustive list of authoritative
> sources?

To the best of my knowledge, as applicable, yeah.

> IOW, are we reasonably sure that some of us would be
> around and give useful help, and that we do not mind readers to
> consider these places "officially endorsed by the project"?

Right. That's my hope. I worry that sending newbies to non-endorsed
places for help will lead to them getting incorrect or conflicting help.

> 
> Or is this meant to be a list of reasonably well-known places, but
> may include places where the project does not want to be associated
> with the quality of answers given there?  

No.

> I am (implicitly) assuming that it is the former, but I think it is
> better to clarify what this "list of places" is meant to be.

I'll try to fudge the language so that it implies these are official
channels for getting help.

> I notice that stack overflow is missing in this list.  Intended?
> Not that I visit there at all nor I would recommend it, but I recall
> seeing questions asked by more than a few people after getting bad
> pieces of advice there.

Hm. SO for getting help contributing to a specific project? That doesn't
sound like a likely avenue or a good idea to me, since my understanding
is that we don't consider it an "official presence" (some projects do, I
guess).

I suppose the kinds of questions I expect to see on StackOverflow
include "How do I write a mutex lock in C" or "How do I generate patches
with a cover letter", not "I'm stuck on this Git tutorial" or "Would the
Git project welcome X change". To me, this doesn't seem like the place
to bring it up one way or another.

> 
> > +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> > +
> > +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> > +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> > +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> > +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> > +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> > +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> > +"subscribe git" in the body.
> 
> Sounds good; I agree with Denton, especially with the mention of
> "you must join" on the other mailing list, that it is a good idea to
> explicitly say that subscription is optional in this entry.
> 
> You can ask questions even if you haven't tried other avenues and
> failed, but this entry makes it sound as if an earlier failure
> elsewhere is a prerequisite for asking for help here.

I envision an exchange sort of like this:

Newbie to git@vger.kernel.org: "I'm having trouble compiling Git and I
want to write a patch, I'm getting X error"

Veteran to Newbie, cc git-mentoring, bcc git@vger.kernel.org:
"Please build with blah flag and paste console output, plus let us know
system information blah blah blah"

I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans. I
have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
mailing list.

Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these three
venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But suggesting the
main list as a last resort was intentional.

 - Emily
Junio C Hamano Nov. 19, 2019, 1:45 a.m. UTC | #5
Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:

>> I am (implicitly) assuming that it is the former, but I think it is
>> better to clarify what this "list of places" is meant to be.
>
> I'll try to fudge the language so that it implies these are official
> channels for getting help.

Sounds good.

>> I notice that stack overflow is missing in this list.  Intended?
>> Not that I visit there at all nor I would recommend it, but I recall
>> seeing questions asked by more than a few people after getting bad
>> pieces of advice there.
>
> Hm. SO for getting help contributing to a specific project? ...
> I suppose the kinds of questions I expect to see on StackOverflow
> include "How do I write a mutex lock in C" or "How do I generate patches
> with a cover letter", not "I'm stuck on this Git tutorial" or "Would the
> Git project welcome X change". To me, this doesn't seem like the place
> to bring it up one way or another.

I am glad I brought this up, because "How do I force git ignore
changes I make to an already tracked file?" was a question I thought
a reader of this document might want to ask to these "avenues for
getting help", and I wouldn't be surprised to see such a question
asked on stack overflow.

After re-reading the title of the document, I am reminded that the
intended audience is aspiring Git developers, and I now know that it
is silly for an aspiring Git _developer_ to be asking such a
question---I am guessing you meant that these "avenues" are only
about getting help on _developing_ code to be included in git-core,
and in that context, yes, I agree that SO is a poor place for that.

I'll re-read the patch to see if what is written in the document is
prone to this kind of misunderstanding, or it was just my fault to
have failed to notice a clear description on what kind of help the
section is talking about.

> I envision an exchange sort of like this:
>
> Newbie to git@vger.kernel.org: "I'm having trouble compiling Git and I
> want to write a patch, I'm getting X error"
>
> Veteran to Newbie, cc git-mentoring, bcc git@vger.kernel.org:
> "Please build with blah flag and paste console output, plus let us know
> system information blah blah blah"
>
> I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans. I
> have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> mailing list.

OK.  I understand and agree with the direction.

I wonder how well the "CC: git-mentoring" part would work, though.

A response to "plus let us know" by the Newbie will most likely keep
the list on CC, which would bounce with "you must be subscribed"?
It may appear rather rude to tell somebody they need to subscribe to
another list in order to obtain the help.

Thanks.
SZEDER Gábor Nov. 19, 2019, 6:25 p.m. UTC | #6
On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 03:06:37PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> +==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
> +
> +This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
> +currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
> +in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
> +https://colabti.org/irclogger//irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see

Nit: there are two consecutive slashes in the middle of that URL.
SZEDER Gábor Nov. 19, 2019, 6:49 p.m. UTC | #7
On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 01:45:19PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 12:05:45PM +0900, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> > > +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> > > +
> > > +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> > > +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> > > +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> > > +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> > > +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> > > +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> > > +"subscribe git" in the body.
> > 
> > Sounds good; I agree with Denton, especially with the mention of
> > "you must join" on the other mailing list, that it is a good idea to
> > explicitly say that subscription is optional in this entry.
> > 
> > You can ask questions even if you haven't tried other avenues and
> > failed, but this entry makes it sound as if an earlier failure
> > elsewhere is a prerequisite for asking for help here.
> 
> I envision an exchange sort of like this:
> 
> Newbie to git@vger.kernel.org: "I'm having trouble compiling Git and I
> want to write a patch, I'm getting X error"
> 
> Veteran to Newbie, cc git-mentoring, bcc git@vger.kernel.org:
> "Please build with blah flag and paste console output, plus let us know
> system information blah blah blah"

That won't work if the veteran is not registered to the mentoring
list, and we can't assume that the newbie is registered there either.
I don't think that we should send anyone who asked a question here to
somewhere else, especially if that elsewhere requires registration.

> I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans. I
> have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> mailing list.
> 
> Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these three
> venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But suggesting the
> main list as a last resort was intentional.

git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
accessible for anyone for writing, reading, and searching.  Therefore
these three venues cannot be weighted equally, but git@vger should be
the explicitly preferred venue.  Only if the newbie has some other
preferences should the other two be considered; e.g. if more
interactive, chatty communication is preferred, then try #git-devel.
Johannes Schindelin Nov. 19, 2019, 9:29 p.m. UTC | #8
Hi Gábor,

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 01:45:19PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
>
> > I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> > first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> > members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans.
> > I have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> > probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> > mailing list.
> >
> > Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these
> > three venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But
> > suggesting the main list as a last resort was intentional.
>
> git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> accessible for anyone for writing,

... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
(which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...

> reading, and searching.  Therefore these three venues cannot be weighted
> equally, but git@vger should be the explicitly preferred venue.  Only if
> the newbie has some other preferences should the other two be
> considered; e.g. if more interactive, chatty communication is preferred,
> then try #git-devel.

Ciao,
Dscho
SZEDER Gábor Nov. 19, 2019, 9:41 p.m. UTC | #9
On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 10:29:43PM +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> Hi Gábor,
> 
> On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 01:45:19PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> >
> > > I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> > > first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> > > members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans.
> > > I have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> > > probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> > > mailing list.
> > >
> > > Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these
> > > three venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But
> > > suggesting the main list as a last resort was intentional.
> >
> > git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> > accessible for anyone for writing,
> 
> ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...

And I believe that that "vast majority" will never try to contribute
to Git, and thus doesn't matter.

> > reading, and searching.  Therefore these three venues cannot be weighted
> > equally, but git@vger should be the explicitly preferred venue.  Only if
> > the newbie has some other preferences should the other two be
> > considered; e.g. if more interactive, chatty communication is preferred,
> > then try #git-devel.
Eric Wong Nov. 20, 2019, 1:50 a.m. UTC | #10
SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 10:29:43PM +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> > On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> > > git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> > > accessible for anyone for writing,
> > 
> > ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> > bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> > (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...
> 
> And I believe that that "vast majority" will never try to contribute
> to Git, and thus doesn't matter.

No.  A better objective would be to promote plain-text to the
point where the "vast majority" expect it.  Ironically, major
social networks and forums are already that way.  HTML mail can
become solely an avenue for phishers and spammers, and
eventually eradicated.  It'll be a long battle ahead, though...
Kerry, Richard Nov. 20, 2019, 10:45 a.m. UTC | #11
> From: git-owner@vger.kernel.org <git-owner@vger.kernel.org> On Behalf
> Of Johannes Schindelin
> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 9:30 PM
> To: SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com>
> ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...

[RK>] And even those of us who can find the plain/html format selection control may find that our employer's system turns everything into base64 anyway, thus again making it impossible to post to vger.  I fully expect this email to reach all those of you who are To or CC, but not to reach vger.

Regards,
Richard.
Junio C Hamano Nov. 20, 2019, 11:37 a.m. UTC | #12
"Kerry, Richard" <richard.kerry@atos.net> writes:

>> From: git-owner@vger.kernel.org <git-owner@vger.kernel.org> On Behalf
>> Of Johannes Schindelin
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 9:30 PM
>> To: SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com>
>> ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
>> bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
>> (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...
>
> [RK>] And even those of us who can find the plain/html format
> selection control may find that our employer's system turns
> everything into base64 anyway, thus again making it impossible to
> post to vger.  I fully expect this email to reach all those of you
> who are To or CC, but not to reach vger.

You actually can read it on public-inbox.org/git/ which means vger
correctly forwarded ;-)
Johannes Schindelin Nov. 20, 2019, 11:41 a.m. UTC | #13
Hi Gábor,

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 10:29:43PM +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 01:45:19PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> > > > first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> > > > members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans.
> > > > I have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> > > > probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> > > > mailing list.
> > > >
> > > > Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these
> > > > three venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But
> > > > suggesting the main list as a last resort was intentional.
> > >
> > > git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> > > accessible for anyone for writing,
> >
> > ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> > bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> > (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...
>
> And I believe that that "vast majority" will never try to contribute
> to Git, and thus doesn't matter.

Yes, this is a tautology, because by that very expectation you make that
happen. It's kind of a perfect example of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And while I write this, I realize that my answer is not even data-driven.
So *clicketyclick*:

$ git shortlog -nse | grep outlook
     6  Force Charlie <charlieio@outlook.com>
     1  Rohit Mani <rohit.mani@outlook.com>

Oh wait, what? That vast majority will never contribute? Not so "never",
after all. Well, it is certain that they do not feel invited to the Git
mailing list, that much is clear. Force Charlie's contributions probably
all came in via Git for Windows (because it does not slam the door in the
face of Outlook.com users, is my guess).

But Rohit is an interesting case. Apparently in 2014, vger had no qualms
about letting @outlook.com users in:

https://public-inbox.org/git/BLU0-SMTP956BEABA437FB370F76953918A0@phx.gbl/

Well, I guess as long as we can make a nice and cozy place for ourselves
and our kind here, and contend ourselves with the knowledge that the rest
of them out there don't matter, all is fine and dandy.

Or maybe it is not. Maybe this is not fine and dandy at all.

Maybe I find this very much _not_ in line with the decency that I normally
see on this here Git mailing list, in particular with the later arrivals.
With the politeness and respect for other people and their different
tastes (such as the taste for HTML-formatted mails, which _do_ make
conveying certain things a lot easier) that I hoped we could all agree on,
and which I actually did feel during our Virtual Contributor Summit
earlier this fall.

I don't know about you, but if I were to read on any mailing list that I
do not matter at all, I would have a range of totally understandable
feelings about that.

In short: This is not what I want to see on this list, it is not in line
with my understanding of being respectful to one another.

Let's hold ourselves to a higher standard, okay?

Ciao,
Dscho

> > > reading, and searching.  Therefore these three venues cannot be weighted
> > > equally, but git@vger should be the explicitly preferred venue.  Only if
> > > the newbie has some other preferences should the other two be
> > > considered; e.g. if more interactive, chatty communication is preferred,
> > > then try #git-devel.
>

P.S.: I _think_ that I understand where exclusive behavior comes from, of
course, there is ample research about this, see e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_and_out-group. This explains it,
but does not excuse it.
SZEDER Gábor Nov. 20, 2019, 11:40 p.m. UTC | #14
On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:41:56PM +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> Hi Gábor,
> 
> On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 10:29:43PM +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 01:45:19PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> > > > > first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> > > > > members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans.
> > > > > I have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> > > > > probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> > > > > mailing list.
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these
> > > > > three venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But
> > > > > suggesting the main list as a last resort was intentional.
> > > >
> > > > git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> > > > accessible for anyone for writing,
> > >
> > > ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> > > bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> > > (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...

My interpretation of the above paragraph was that the "(which I
believe constitutes the vast majority)" part refers only to the
"people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails", but not
to the aforementioned "people with an @outlook.com address" (who had
their own subsentence in parentheses).

And with that statement in itself I completely agree: I would expect
that that "vast majority", i.e. the number of people who don't know
how to suppress HTML in their emails is in the billions, though I have
no data on that.

> > And I believe that that "vast majority" will never try to contribute
> > to Git, and thus doesn't matter.

I could have worded this more carefully, e.g. along the lines of:

  I believe that the vast majority of people will never contribute to
  Git anyway, therefore trying to give more weight to your argument
  with that "vast majority" doesn't make it any stronger.

> Yes, this is a tautology, because by that very expectation you make that
> happen. It's kind of a perfect example of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Call it as you wish, I think it's simply inconceivable that the vast
majority of people will contribute to Git.


[Snipping the parts that appear to stem from the misunderstanding that
I tried to clarify above, in the hope that we can focus on the more
important point, which is:]


> > > > reading, and searching.

I would like to emphasize these last words of the sentence that was
cut in two so unfortunately, because I'm afraid that they didn't get
the attention they deserve although they are of fundamental
importance.

If someone reaches out to us with a problem, and we can provide a
solution, then it's best to have that solution openly accessible for
the benefit of everyone else.  IMO this far outweighs any issues with
HTML-formatted emails or @outlook.com email addresses, and on its own
justifies putting git@vger first.  That way even those who stop
reading at the first email address will choose what's most beneficial
for the greater good.  If someone for some reason still prefers
otherwise and/or due to some technical limitation can't post to
git@vger, then they could still consider the other two venues.

> > > > Therefore these three venues cannot be weighted
> > > > equally, but git@vger should be the explicitly preferred venue.  Only if
> > > > the newbie has some other preferences should the other two be
> > > > considered; e.g. if more interactive, chatty communication is preferred,
> > > > then try #git-devel.

Patch
diff mbox series

diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
index 5e9b808f5f..90f45b387a 100644
--- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
+++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
@@ -23,6 +23,39 @@  useful additional context:
 - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
 - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
 
+[[getting-help]]
+=== Getting Help
+
+If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
+
+==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
+
+This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
+questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
+project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
+
+==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
+
+This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
+currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
+in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
+https://colabti.org/irclogger//irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
+whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
+if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
+respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
+can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
+conversation.
+
+==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
+
+This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
+announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
+help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
+requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
+replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
+subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
+"subscribe git" in the body.
+
 [[getting-started]]
 == Getting Started