| Message ID | alpine.LNX.2.00.1406251139070.15939@pobox.suse.cz (mailing list archive) |
|---|---|
| State | New, archived |
| Headers | show |
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 11:42:43AM +0200, Jiri Kosina wrote: > Acer Aspire needs to be added to nomux blacklist, otherwise the touchpad > misbehaves rather randomly. > > Signed-off-by: Jiri Kosina <jkosina@suse.cz> > > --- > > Hi Dmitry, > > I've come across this a few year old patch originating from our internal > bugzilla, which was apparently been lost between the cracks somewhere. > We've been carrying it in our kernel tree for quite some time ... could > you please apply it? Thanks. I will. I also wonder if by now we should stop defaulting to MUX mode: all newer desktop/server boxes use USB, only laptops still use PS/2, and quite a few of them not implement active MUX properly. I also expect that most of external PS/2 mice are dead by now, so number of cases when we have users with PS/2 touchpad + external PS/2 mouse + working active MUX is exceedingly small. Let's pull Vojtech in ;) Thanks.
On Wed, Jul 09, 2014 at 09:54:38AM -0700, Dmitry Torokhov wrote: > On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 11:42:43AM +0200, Jiri Kosina wrote: > > Acer Aspire needs to be added to nomux blacklist, otherwise the touchpad > > misbehaves rather randomly. > > > > Signed-off-by: Jiri Kosina <jkosina@suse.cz> > > > > --- > > > > Hi Dmitry, > > > > I've come across this a few year old patch originating from our internal > > bugzilla, which was apparently been lost between the cracks somewhere. > > We've been carrying it in our kernel tree for quite some time ... could > > you please apply it? Thanks. > > I will. I also wonder if by now we should stop defaulting to MUX mode: > all newer desktop/server boxes use USB, only laptops still use PS/2, MUX mode was only ever available on laptops - no desktop computer I'm aware of ever had it. > and quite a few of them not implement active MUX properly. Do you still get reports of non-working, but advertized Active Multiplexing mode on new laptops? > I also expect > that most of external PS/2 mice are dead by now, so number of cases when One would at least hope so. Sadly, internal mice and PS/2 keyboards aren't going to go away any soon, due to larger power consumption of USB devices. > we have users with PS/2 touchpad + external PS/2 mouse + working active > MUX is exceedingly small. > > Let's pull Vojtech in ;) What I'd prefer is to, based on DMI data, report but not enable by default Active MUX mode on any machine manufactured after a certain date. Plus have a DMI-based whitelist for machines that absolutely needed, if any are found later.
On Wed, Jul 09, 2014 at 07:48:21PM +0200, Vojtech Pavlik wrote: > On Wed, Jul 09, 2014 at 09:54:38AM -0700, Dmitry Torokhov wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 11:42:43AM +0200, Jiri Kosina wrote: > > > Acer Aspire needs to be added to nomux blacklist, otherwise the touchpad > > > misbehaves rather randomly. > > > > > > Signed-off-by: Jiri Kosina <jkosina@suse.cz> > > > > > > --- > > > > > > Hi Dmitry, > > > > > > I've come across this a few year old patch originating from our internal > > > bugzilla, which was apparently been lost between the cracks somewhere. > > > We've been carrying it in our kernel tree for quite some time ... could > > > you please apply it? Thanks. > > > > I will. I also wonder if by now we should stop defaulting to MUX mode: > > all newer desktop/server boxes use USB, only laptops still use PS/2, > > MUX mode was only ever available on laptops - no desktop computer I'm > aware of ever had it. Yeah, I don't recall seeing one either. > > > and quite a few of them not implement active MUX properly. > > Do you still get reports of non-working, but advertized Active > Multiplexing mode on new laptops? Evey now and then... Vendors seem to not normally touch that code. > > > I also expect > > that most of external PS/2 mice are dead by now, so number of cases when > > One would at least hope so. Sadly, internal mice and PS/2 keyboards > aren't going to go away any soon, due to larger power consumption of USB > devices. Right, but we are not talking about mouse vs keyboard, they use separate ports anyway, it is touchpad plus external PS/2 mouse case where active MUX might help. > > > we have users with PS/2 touchpad + external PS/2 mouse + working active > > MUX is exceedingly small. > > > > Let's pull Vojtech in ;) > > What I'd prefer is to, based on DMI data, report but not enable by > default Active MUX mode on any machine manufactured after a certain > date. Plus have a DMI-based whitelist for machines that absolutely > needed, if any are found later. Looking at the changes to nomux blacklist sometimes even trying MUX messes up KBC. Instead of playing date games I'd rather simply make i8042.nomux default. I'm fine with having whitelist for boxes that actually need and support muxing properly. Thanks.
Hi, On 07/09/2014 09:38 PM, Dmitry Torokhov wrote: > On Wed, Jul 09, 2014 at 07:48:21PM +0200, Vojtech Pavlik wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 09, 2014 at 09:54:38AM -0700, Dmitry Torokhov wrote: >>> On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 11:42:43AM +0200, Jiri Kosina wrote: >>>> Acer Aspire needs to be added to nomux blacklist, otherwise the touchpad >>>> misbehaves rather randomly. >>>> >>>> Signed-off-by: Jiri Kosina <jkosina@suse.cz> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> Hi Dmitry, >>>> >>>> I've come across this a few year old patch originating from our internal >>>> bugzilla, which was apparently been lost between the cracks somewhere. >>>> We've been carrying it in our kernel tree for quite some time ... could >>>> you please apply it? Thanks. >>> >>> I will. I also wonder if by now we should stop defaulting to MUX mode: >>> all newer desktop/server boxes use USB, only laptops still use PS/2, >> >> MUX mode was only ever available on laptops - no desktop computer I'm >> aware of ever had it. > > Yeah, I don't recall seeing one either. > >> >>> and quite a few of them not implement active MUX properly. >> >> Do you still get reports of non-working, but advertized Active >> Multiplexing mode on new laptops? > > Evey now and then... Vendors seem to not normally touch that code. > >> >>> I also expect >>> that most of external PS/2 mice are dead by now, so number of cases when >> >> One would at least hope so. Sadly, internal mice and PS/2 keyboards >> aren't going to go away any soon, due to larger power consumption of USB >> devices. > > Right, but we are not talking about mouse vs keyboard, they use separate > ports anyway, it is touchpad plus external PS/2 mouse case where active > MUX might help. What about laptops with both a touchpad and a trackpoint ? I think in most cases the trackpoint works through some sort of pass-through mode of the touchpad (or is outright part of the touchpad ps/2 device), but are we sure there are no cases where the trackpoint and touchpad are really separate ps/2 devices hookedup through an active mux ? > >> >>> we have users with PS/2 touchpad + external PS/2 mouse + working active >>> MUX is exceedingly small. >>> >>> Let's pull Vojtech in ;) >> >> What I'd prefer is to, based on DMI data, report but not enable by >> default Active MUX mode on any machine manufactured after a certain >> date. Plus have a DMI-based whitelist for machines that absolutely >> needed, if any are found later. > > Looking at the changes to nomux blacklist sometimes even trying MUX > messes up KBC. Instead of playing date games I'd rather simply make > i8042.nomux default. I'm fine with having whitelist for boxes that > actually need and support muxing properly. I'm a bit skeptical about making this change, see above. Regards, Hans -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-input" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 09:32:16AM +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: > >>> I also expect > >>> that most of external PS/2 mice are dead by now, so number of cases when > >> > >> One would at least hope so. Sadly, internal mice and PS/2 keyboards > >> aren't going to go away any soon, due to larger power consumption of USB > >> devices. > > > > Right, but we are not talking about mouse vs keyboard, they use separate > > ports anyway, it is touchpad plus external PS/2 mouse case where active > > MUX might help. > > What about laptops with both a touchpad and a trackpoint ? I think in most > cases the trackpoint works through some sort of pass-through mode of the > touchpad (or is outright part of the touchpad ps/2 device), but are we > sure there are no cases where the trackpoint and touchpad are really > separate ps/2 devices hookedup through an active mux ? I'm not aware of any current machines using active multiplexing for that. There are basically two touchpad manufacturers: Synaptics and ALPS. Synaptics has a nearly transparent passthrough mode and touchpoints are connected through that. ALPS basically manufactures a touchpad+touchpoint combo device and thus doesn't need a fully transparent passthrough. Active multiplexing was typically used for external PS/2 ports on laptops, because the manufacturer couldn't anticipate the protocol of the externally connected device. > >>> we have users with PS/2 touchpad + external PS/2 mouse + working active > >>> MUX is exceedingly small. > >>> > >>> Let's pull Vojtech in ;) > >> > >> What I'd prefer is to, based on DMI data, report but not enable by > >> default Active MUX mode on any machine manufactured after a certain > >> date. Plus have a DMI-based whitelist for machines that absolutely > >> needed, if any are found later. > > > > Looking at the changes to nomux blacklist sometimes even trying MUX > > messes up KBC. Instead of playing date games I'd rather simply make > > i8042.nomux default. I'm fine with having whitelist for boxes that > > actually need and support muxing properly. > > I'm a bit skeptical about making this change, see above. I'm not too keen about it either, as it could break existing setups. But I have to concede that any working hardware still using both external and internal PS/2 and thus needing Active Multiplexing is most likely to be found in museums today. So the risk of breakage isn't all that big.
Hi, On 07/10/2014 10:45 AM, Vojtech Pavlik wrote: > On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 09:32:16AM +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: > >>>>> I also expect >>>>> that most of external PS/2 mice are dead by now, so number of cases when >>>> >>>> One would at least hope so. Sadly, internal mice and PS/2 keyboards >>>> aren't going to go away any soon, due to larger power consumption of USB >>>> devices. >>> >>> Right, but we are not talking about mouse vs keyboard, they use separate >>> ports anyway, it is touchpad plus external PS/2 mouse case where active >>> MUX might help. >> >> What about laptops with both a touchpad and a trackpoint ? I think in most >> cases the trackpoint works through some sort of pass-through mode of the >> touchpad (or is outright part of the touchpad ps/2 device), but are we >> sure there are no cases where the trackpoint and touchpad are really >> separate ps/2 devices hookedup through an active mux ? > > I'm not aware of any current machines using active multiplexing for > that. There are basically two touchpad manufacturers: Synaptics and > ALPS. And elantech > Synaptics has a nearly transparent passthrough mode and > touchpoints are connected through that. ALPS basically manufactures a > touchpad+touchpoint combo device and thus doesn't need a fully > transparent passthrough. Elantech now a days also produces a combo like alps. > Active multiplexing was typically used for external PS/2 ports on > laptops, because the manufacturer couldn't anticipate the protocol of > the externally connected device. Right, but what about users who still have a laptop with an external ps/2 port which they happen to also still use ? > >>>>> we have users with PS/2 touchpad + external PS/2 mouse + working active >>>>> MUX is exceedingly small. >>>>> >>>>> Let's pull Vojtech in ;) >>>> >>>> What I'd prefer is to, based on DMI data, report but not enable by >>>> default Active MUX mode on any machine manufactured after a certain >>>> date. Plus have a DMI-based whitelist for machines that absolutely >>>> needed, if any are found later. >>> >>> Looking at the changes to nomux blacklist sometimes even trying MUX >>> messes up KBC. Instead of playing date games I'd rather simply make >>> i8042.nomux default. I'm fine with having whitelist for boxes that >>> actually need and support muxing properly. >> >> I'm a bit skeptical about making this change, see above. > > I'm not too keen about it either, as it could break existing setups. > > But I have to concede that any working hardware still using both > external and internal PS/2 and thus needing Active Multiplexing is most > likely to be found in museums today. > > So the risk of breakage isn't all that big. One of the nice things about Linux is that in general we've pretty decent support for older hardware, so if we decide to flip the nomux default, I think we should really do so based on some BIOS cut-off date, so as to not break older model laptops. Regards, Hans > -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-input" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 05:20:55PM +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: > Hi, > > On 07/10/2014 10:45 AM, Vojtech Pavlik wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 09:32:16AM +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: > > > >>>>> I also expect > >>>>> that most of external PS/2 mice are dead by now, so number of cases when > >>>> > >>>> One would at least hope so. Sadly, internal mice and PS/2 keyboards > >>>> aren't going to go away any soon, due to larger power consumption of USB > >>>> devices. > >>> > >>> Right, but we are not talking about mouse vs keyboard, they use separate > >>> ports anyway, it is touchpad plus external PS/2 mouse case where active > >>> MUX might help. > >> > >> What about laptops with both a touchpad and a trackpoint ? I think in most > >> cases the trackpoint works through some sort of pass-through mode of the > >> touchpad (or is outright part of the touchpad ps/2 device), but are we > >> sure there are no cases where the trackpoint and touchpad are really > >> separate ps/2 devices hookedup through an active mux ? > > > > I'm not aware of any current machines using active multiplexing for > > that. There are basically two touchpad manufacturers: Synaptics and > > ALPS. > > And elantech > > > Synaptics has a nearly transparent passthrough mode and > > touchpoints are connected through that. ALPS basically manufactures a > > touchpad+touchpoint combo device and thus doesn't need a fully > > transparent passthrough. > > Elantech now a days also produces a combo like alps. They still wire it up internally and route all data through AUX port and not use active MUX for that. > > > Active multiplexing was typically used for external PS/2 ports on > > laptops, because the manufacturer couldn't anticipate the protocol of > > the externally connected device. > > Right, but what about users who still have a laptop with an external > ps/2 port which they happen to also still use ? The assertion that it works well now, which is a stretch. As far as I know Windows by default does not activate it, so manufacturers rarely test it. > > > > > > >>>>> we have users with PS/2 touchpad + external PS/2 mouse + working active > >>>>> MUX is exceedingly small. > >>>>> > >>>>> Let's pull Vojtech in ;) > >>>> > >>>> What I'd prefer is to, based on DMI data, report but not enable by > >>>> default Active MUX mode on any machine manufactured after a certain > >>>> date. Plus have a DMI-based whitelist for machines that absolutely > >>>> needed, if any are found later. > >>> > >>> Looking at the changes to nomux blacklist sometimes even trying MUX > >>> messes up KBC. Instead of playing date games I'd rather simply make > >>> i8042.nomux default. I'm fine with having whitelist for boxes that > >>> actually need and support muxing properly. > >> > >> I'm a bit skeptical about making this change, see above. > > > > I'm not too keen about it either, as it could break existing setups. > > > > But I have to concede that any working hardware still using both > > external and internal PS/2 and thus needing Active Multiplexing is most > > likely to be found in museums today. > > > > So the risk of breakage isn't all that big. > > One of the nice things about Linux is that in general we've pretty > decent support for older hardware, so if we decide to flip the nomux > default, I think we should really do so based on some BIOS cut-off > date, so as to not break older model laptops. I think historically IBM and HPs had working MUX support while other's did might advertise support and fail miserably when we would try activating it. Given that now majority of mice are USB even if we select wrong default on some older box I think it would be acceptable as opposed to a newer box not having touchpad at all... Thanks.
Hi, On 07/10/2014 11:11 PM, Dmitry Torokhov wrote: <snip> >>> I'm not aware of any current machines using active multiplexing for >>> that. There are basically two touchpad manufacturers: Synaptics and >>> ALPS. >> >> And elantech >> >>> Synaptics has a nearly transparent passthrough mode and >>> touchpoints are connected through that. ALPS basically manufactures a >>> touchpad+touchpoint combo device and thus doesn't need a fully >>> transparent passthrough. >> >> Elantech now a days also produces a combo like alps. > > They still wire it up internally and route all data through AUX port and > not use active MUX for that. Right, that is what I was trying to say with "like alps", sorry if that was not clear. This was not meant as an argument against changing the nomux default, just meant to complete the list. <offtopic> BTW while completing the list, there now is a new player called Focaltech, used at least in the Asus X450 and Asus X550. These new devices don't even work in mouse emulation mode unless psmouse.proto=bare is used. I'm working on a pnp-id based patch to detect this and switch to psmouse.proto=bare before we upset them (no idea about the native protocol) Although native support would be better of course, so if anyone has a contact at Focaltech that would be great. But for some reason my patch ain't working. I'll send it upstream as soon as I've worked out the kinks, this is being tracked here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1110011 </offtopic> <snip> >> One of the nice things about Linux is that in general we've pretty >> decent support for older hardware, so if we decide to flip the nomux >> default, I think we should really do so based on some BIOS cut-off >> date, so as to not break older model laptops. > > I think historically IBM and HPs had working MUX support while other's > did might advertise support and fail miserably when we would try > activating it. > > Given that now majority of mice are USB even if we select wrong default > on some older box I think it would be acceptable as opposed to a newer > box not having touchpad at all... I'm still not 100% sure if having some curt-off date would not be better, but if you prefer just flipping the default everywhere lets go for that. <semi-random-related-idea> I guess that for anything except really really old boxes, the ps/2 will be part of the superio chip. super-io chips are relatively easy to identify / probe in a safe manner. So do you know if the ps/2 muxing is usually part of the super-io, or if it is an extra chip? If it is part of the superio then building a whitelist based on superio ids may be an idea (once we get whitelist requests). </semi-random-related-idea> Regards, Hans -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-input" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
--- a/drivers/input/serio/i8042-x86ia64io.h +++ b/drivers/input/serio/i8042-x86ia64io.h @@ -371,6 +371,13 @@ static const struct dmi_system_id __init }, }, { + /* Acer Aspire 5710 */ + .matches = { + DMI_MATCH(DMI_SYS_VENDOR, "Acer"), + DMI_MATCH(DMI_PRODUCT_NAME, "Aspire 5710"), + }, + }, + { /* Gericom Bellagio */ .matches = { DMI_MATCH(DMI_SYS_VENDOR, "Gericom"),
Acer Aspire needs to be added to nomux blacklist, otherwise the touchpad misbehaves rather randomly. Signed-off-by: Jiri Kosina <jkosina@suse.cz> --- Hi Dmitry, I've come across this a few year old patch originating from our internal bugzilla, which was apparently been lost between the cracks somewhere. We've been carrying it in our kernel tree for quite some time ... could you please apply it? Thanks. drivers/input/serio/i8042-x86ia64io.h | 7 +++++++ 1 file changed, 7 insertions(+)